The World Of Twilight

Hi all.

I've just finished reading through the book, and now I'm going back through the rules to get a solid handle on them before trying to show the game off. That said, I'm going in with a somewhat fine-toothed comb, so apologies if some of the questions seem a bit nitpicky, but getting those out of the way seems like it might be useful for lots of people. I'm using the compilation book, for reference.

1. Tiny Models, p.11
Tiny models don't trigger abilities like defender or momentum. Is that all the abilities they don't trigger?

2. Linear Barriers, p.12
When model F1 crosses a linear barrier (by moving cautiously, as is needed to cross obstacles), what situations allow an enemy model on the other side to move [either to give the currently moving model room to place itself or to engage]? Basically, is the idea to allow the enemy model to defend that obstacle by moving to meet/block the crosser? If so, how far can that enemy model move? Say I want to cross a small stone wall 4 inches wide to end on the left of the other side, but my enemy has a model on the right of the other side. Can that model move two inches to be in contact with my troop when it completes its movement?

3. Allocating Blows, p.17
Is there a restriction on allocating blows other than the first must go to the opponent's primary combatant? It seems like it would make single powerful characters quite vulnerable, if in a long strung out chain of adjacent models blows could be allocated any which way beyond that; maybe that just means players try to avoid big scrums in the middle, which is itself a nice change of pace for a set of rules.

4. Ranged Attacks, p.19
If a model moves out of engagement (cautiously, or leaping, or otherwise) and has moved within the limit allowed for its ranged attack, can it shoot?

5. Blast Attacks, pp.20-21
Is the full blast bonus only useable against one model? Does that model have to be the first? Taking the example on p.21, if the shooting KalDru had not moved and simply fired from where it stood, it would have hit both enemies but without the full blast bonus (and presumably the Kopa gets the Obstructed bonus due to being hidden by the grishak). Moving to the example as it is played, the KalDru moves and then positions the template. As the attacker can choose the order in which blast combat is resolved, could the player have chosen to resolve the attack against the Kopa first? If so, would the KalDru get the full blast bonus against it? I think this confusion might be a function of me being used to the idea that blast templates must have a series of exceptions that many other rulesets perpetuate.

6. Friends and Allies, p.22
More of a story/rules interaction question - there's a line in that section that says the Dhogu can be used in an Empire list in some situations, but if those situations are mentioned in the book I must have missed them. Is there another cross-culture ability aside from Gil Masharl's Travelling Biologist, and the Diplomat abilities of Obal and Danakan?

Abilities:

1. Light Weapon
Can the ranged attack be made against any model, or just the engaging model(s)? Also, can the shooting model hit itself following the normal rules for shooting at an enemy who is engaged (in this case, by the shooter). Might I also suggest if the model can shoot against unengaged models, that those models get Obstructed oran bonus? It seems hard to picture that chucking a spear is going to be as easy if there's something preparing to claw you.

2. Aggressive
Does this that the model gets a Combat Action when a combat stone comes up, or does it function like Charge, where the model gets a combat action right after its activation?

3. Concealed
If a model with concealed is engaged, can it be hit by a randomised ranged attack from beyond 6" if the original target was legal? It's a very gamey question, but I'm actually thinking of it from a reality-modelling view. If we grant (as the rules elsewhere do) that a melee combat is a swirling mass where the involved models are all moving around in the space the whole engagement takes up, it seems reasonable to me that someone chucking a missile into that might hit models that would otherwise be concealed.

4. Diplomat
Just a clarification really: I assume the 100 points is in addition to the cost of the Diplomat model itself?

5. Flying/Ranger/Unstoppabled
Can Rangers hop linear barriers with regular movement as well? Do Unstoppabled models, Rangers and Flyers trigger the answer to question 2 in the preceding section?

6. Persistent
Does it basically just mean that when the Kalgush is killed, the generator continues to replenish stamina and then just vents once a turn? Can a sneaky Plutom refuel it for giggles? I'm assuming the Cloud won't stack its effects if earlier clouds haven't dissipated when a new one gets vented?

7. Powerful Charge
I see this has come up before, but I think it might be worth deciding whether Powerful Charge needs to be in a straight line to trigger or not. I'm all for allowing models to move as they wish, but the trade-off for allowing models to move in a circle or back and forth (maybe to pick up loot) is that abilities like Powerful Charge (or future speed-based defence abilities) can be gamed really hard. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch here, in that one can easily imagine that if an Enuk has to turn too close to when the charge hits home, its forward moment will drop off anyway.

8. Protected/Rare
Does 'accompany' mean deploying nearby and following around or just that the Rare models can be selected for the force?

9. Solo
Can you return an earlier initiative stone than the one used to activate the Solo (so that if a combat stone comes up next you'll have initiative due to the stone used to activate the Solo being the first in line)?

10. Unwieldy
As small models are slowed when carrying Unwieldy objects, maybe it would make sense to bar tiny models from carrying them at all.

11. Defender
Can a model moving using Defender cross difficult terrain and linear obstacles? Again, a very gamey question, but you might imagine a Beland with a militia model behind it with a fence running adjacent to them, where the Belan is charged by an enemy to the front and the militia would have enough movement and space to cross the fence to defend the packbeast.



Whew. If you made it this far, congratulations. I think that's about all I can think of at the moment.

Good questions! I'll answer them one inline:

1. Tiny Models, p.11
Tiny models don't trigger abilities like defender or momentum. Is that all the abilities they don't trigger?

- I think that is it at the moment. For future abilities I will make it clear if they don't impact tiny models.

2. Linear Barriers, p.12
When model F1 crosses a linear barrier (by moving cautiously, as is needed to cross obstacles), what situations allow an enemy model on the other side to move [either to give the currently moving model room to place itself or to engage]? Basically, is the idea to allow the enemy model to defend that obstacle by moving to meet/block the crosser? If so, how far can that enemy model move? Say I want to cross a small stone wall 4 inches wide to end on the left of the other side, but my enemy has a model on the right of the other side. Can that model move two inches to be in contact with my troop when it completes its movement?

- The idea is that if a model wants to move over a barrier, but there isn't enough room to place the model then the other model must move to either block the move completely, or give the model space. A model can thus defend a couple of inches of wall. In your example it sounds like there is space to move, so the model can hop straight over.

3. Allocating Blows, p.17
Is there a restriction on allocating blows other than the first must go to the opponent's primary combatant? It seems like it would make single powerful characters quite vulnerable, if in a long strung out chain of adjacent models blows could be allocated any which way beyond that; maybe that just means players try to avoid big scrums in the middle, which is itself a nice change of pace for a set of rules.

- There is no limitation, but in most cases you are better off splitting up the blows a bit (unless you are trying to take Roban or a Belan down!).

4. Ranged Attacks, p.19
If a model moves out of engagement (cautiously, or leaping, or otherwise) and has moved within the limit allowed for its ranged attack, can it shoot?

- No. A model can only use a Ranged ability (which includes the move) if it isn't engaged. Leap is an exception though - you could use that to get out of combat and then use the ranged ability.

5. Blast Attacks, pp.20-21
Is the full blast bonus only useable against one model? Does that model have to be the first? Taking the example on p.21, if the shooting KalDru had not moved and simply fired from where it stood, it would have hit both enemies but without the full blast bonus (and presumably the Kopa gets the Obstructed bonus due to being hidden by the grishak). Moving to the example as it is played, the KalDru moves and then positions the template. As the attacker can choose the order in which blast combat is resolved, could the player have chosen to resolve the attack against the Kopa first? If so, would the KalDru get the full blast bonus against it? I think this confusion might be a function of me being used to the idea that blast templates must have a series of exceptions that many other rulesets perpetuate.

- This was a shift in the rules since I published book 2. Originally you would always get full blast if both sides touched, but during playtesting that felt a bit wrong. It should now be only the first model in the path that can get hit full blast.
As an aside, in that example the Kopa isn't visible unless the Grishak is killed, so can't be targeted first.

6. Friends and Allies, p.22
More of a story/rules interaction question - there's a line in that section that says the Dhogu can be used in an Empire list in some situations, but if those situations are mentioned in the book I must have missed them. Is there another cross-culture ability aside from Gil Masharl's Travelling Biologist, and the Diplomat abilities of Obal and Danakan?

- Not yet, but it's an option for scenarios.

Abilities:

1. Light Weapon
Can the ranged attack be made against any model, or just the engaging model(s)?

- Any model

Also, can the shooting model hit itself following the normal rules for shooting at an enemy who is engaged (in this case, by the shooter). Might I also suggest if the model can shoot against unengaged models, that those models get Obstructed oran bonus? It seems hard to picture that chucking a spear is going to be as easy if there's something preparing to claw you.

- The model can't be engaged when it makes the attack (possibly clunky language in the rules, but by default you can't carry out a Ranged Action OR make a ranged attack if engaged - Light weapon gets around the first restraint, but teh second is still true).

2. Aggressive
Does this that the model gets a Combat Action when a combat stone comes up, or does it function like Charge, where the model gets a combat action right after its activation?

- Just in the combat phase, when a Combat Counter has been drawn.

3. Concealed
If a model with concealed is engaged, can it be hit by a randomised ranged attack from beyond 6" if the original target was legal? It's a very gamey question, but I'm actually thinking of it from a reality-modelling view. If we grant (as the rules elsewhere do) that a melee combat is a swirling mass where the involved models are all moving around in the space the whole engagement takes up, it seems reasonable to me that someone chucking a missile into that might hit models that would otherwise be concealed.

- It can't be selected as a target, but I think it's fair that it could be hit randomly. Good question!
- I would frown on somebody deliberately engaging it with one of their models and then making a ranged attack in the hope of getting a random hit though  ;)

4. Diplomat
Just a clarification really: I assume the 100 points is in addition to the cost of the Diplomat model itself?

- Yes

5. Flying/Ranger/Unstoppabled
Can Rangers hop linear barriers with regular movement as well? Do Unstoppabled models, Rangers and Flyers trigger the answer to question 2 in the preceding section?

6. Persistent
Does it basically just mean that when the Kalgush is killed, the generator continues to replenish stamina and then just vents once a turn? Can a sneaky Plutom refuel it for giggles? I'm assuming the Cloud won't stack its effects if earlier clouds haven't dissipated when a new one gets vented?

- Yes, clouds would keep forming over the body. They dissipate 50% of the time so you may end up with clouds on top of clouds. I didn't go so far to have clouds growing together. Plutom could refuel it, but I'm not sure if that would make any difference...

7. Powerful Charge
I see this has come up before, but I think it might be worth deciding whether Powerful Charge needs to be in a straight line to trigger or not. I'm all for allowing models to move as they wish, but the trade-off for allowing models to move in a circle or back and forth (maybe to pick up loot) is that abilities like Powerful Charge (or future speed-based defence abilities) can be gamed really hard. It doesn't seem like too much of a stretch here, in that one can easily imagine that if an Enuk has to turn too close to when the charge hits home, its forward moment will drop off anyway.

- Measure the distance the model is from it's position at the start of its activation and its position at the end of a move (either the initial move or subsequent sprints etc). If it is more then the threshold then Powerful Charge kicks in. It's a tricky rule to describe clearly within the ability, so I'm hoping that makes sense!

8. Protected/Rare
Does 'accompany' mean deploying nearby and following around or just that the Rare models can be selected for the force?

- Just selected in a force. If Dehran takes a bunch of KalDreman bodyguards with him, then he may choose to keep them, or distribute them around the force.

9. Solo
Can you return an earlier initiative stone than the one used to activate the Solo (so that if a combat stone comes up next you'll have initiative due to the stone used to activate the Solo being the first in line)?

- Interesting question! You should retain the initiative either way, so it shouldn't matter. The stones on the table are a good way to track initiative (particularly with multiplayer games), but the main driver is who activated last.

10. Unwieldy
As small models are slowed when carrying Unwieldy objects, maybe it would make sense to bar tiny models from carrying them at all.

- Yes it would... At the moment all tiny models are beasts so can't carry objects (p23). We ignored the 'beasts can't carry objects' rule in the scenario. I'm wondering if there should be more exceptions to that rule, but those would be specified in the scenario.
The main reason for the rule is that things like Grishak cannot carry eggsticks!

11. Defender
Can a model moving using Defender cross difficult terrain and linear obstacles? Again, a very gamey question, but you might imagine a Beland with a militia model behind it with a fence running adjacent to them, where the Belan is charged by an enemy to the front and the militia would have enough movement and space to cross the fence to defend the packbeast.

- I'll say 'yes'. You've described an extreme situation that stretches the logic, but to avoid it would require a lot more complexity! Just imagine the defender squeezing between the belan and the fence, or crawling between its legs in a suitable dramatic fashion. The defender isn't standing still while the enemy approaches, then suddenly leaping in to help - he's watching the situation and working into position before the enemy has even reached them. The mechanics are just a way to represent that.

Whew. If you made it this far, congratulations. I think that's about all I can think of at the moment.
- There were more questions than expected when I started my responses! Good questions though and I hope the responses are useful!

Good questions!
 I'll try my hand at thee and see how much despair I can ignite in Mike by getting it wrong after a weekend of demoing his game.

I don't have my books handy. So I will skip some as can't be too sure. In any case, mikes answers obviously superceed my own - the GGC may well still be playing it wrong!

1)I can't think of any other abilities off my head that would be triggered by contacting or killing an enemy piece, so at the moment I'd say yes, just those. However, it brings to mind pounce, which I know has already been clarified, where tiny creatures can and will be targeted if they are the closest unit.


This I do not know. Over to mike. Note to self - use more hedges and walls!
You are reading the rules correctly, and this forms a lot of the decision making in the game. Timing is everything & use of the right abilities (coordinated strike, assassinate, charge etc) to force the important combats when YOU want them, and with the right combatants. It is why initiative in a combat phase is important. You are forced to prioritise the combats in which your best characters can have the greatest influence. It is also worth noting that you don't have to select good characters to support the poor ones. Often it is best to sacrifice the poor unit, and initiate another combat with the important character, allowing you to bring their abilities to bear and greatly increase their chances of survival and indeed victory, despite having lost a possible support unit.



You may not use a ranged attack if you are forced to move cautiously. I don't have the book to reference this, but it is in there. However, a leap move is not cautious and may be taken out of the order of normal movements so in this case it may used it's ranged attack stat line& shoot rather than it's normal movement. Note that now sprint moves cannot be used to move out of engagement ( they previously could, but this is now limited purely to leap).


Yes, and yes. Don't have the book to hand to answer the details about the specific example given, but think of it logically like a shotgun blast. If the front guy is hit by the full cone of shot, it's full blast. If he goes down to it, the next guy is hit, but the dude in front already took some of the shot - not full blast. If the front guy remains standing, then the guy behind has been shielded by his double 'ard fellow, and is not hit


And thus, over to mike ;) can't think of any other specific units that allow unusual alliances though. Think it's fair to say dhogu would fight alongside empire against the devanu


I totally agree with the way you've read this rule. I did so myself, but have had it clarified by mike that this is not the intention.

The intention is apparently that with this ability a model may use a ranged attack even if it is forced to move cautiously to disengage, not that it may actually fire whilst still within an engaged position. As such, it could fire at any target, and could not hit itself. that the model still has to disengage in order to shoot.

This is one which needs official clarification somewhere, as we've had devanu spears palming off their engaged foes, whilst throwing spears at other adversaries and still being engaged to tear their original opponent apart in the combat phase on more than one occasion, and it appears for once it's not just it's lot that have read it like this!

When the combat stone comes up. It is basically an enabling ability to make pounce work.


Yes, as far as I am aware it can be hit just as you say.

That's how we've always used them, but worth a clarification mike, or I'm always going to use them!





And at that point, I need to go back to work - deliveries arrived! More later!

Thanks for your time guys, that pretty much sorts out every weird rule interaction I could think of.   :)

Ok,so mike obviously posted as I started writing that, whoops!

Quick note on the very last one - we've had that come up and went for the "through the legs" option. Rules state they have to maintain contact with the model they're defending. You may move freely through your own troops. How much more in contact do you want than Straight over their base? So long as there's somewhere for them to stand freely in the end of course  ;)

Good to see Paul's responses as well! I think we agreed on every point  :)
One clarification - you can move cautiously and makes a ranged attack (eg across difficult terrain), it's just being engaged with an enemy that causes issues.

The 'between the legs' rule makes sense - not the original intention, but a fair reading of the rules. I may have to add that to a general errata!

A little question after the game yesterday:
who has the initiative, when the first counter taken in the bag is a combat counter, and if miniatures are still in base-to-base after the end of the previous turn ?

The player whose counter was last deawn the turn before

That's right - you retain the initiative until somebody else's counter is drawn. The counters on the table are just a useful way to keep track.

So if it's at the beginning of a turn, we have to remember who has had the initiative at the previous turn.
Thanks !

Another fun game yesterday night, and an other question has appeared, concerning the KalGush of the Delgon:

I don't understand this ability: what does "disabled" mean ? There is no mention of this word in the book.

And a precision: does a model need a line of sight at the begenning of its move to engage an enemy model ?

Persistent - the idea is that the model stays on the table after it is 'killed' (I used disabled rather than killed as the model may not actually be dead, just out of action for the remainder of the game). For the KalGush, the motor on his gushrak keep running, pumping out clouds of smoke even if the operator is dead. The kedashi bagrun also uses the rule as it's bags of annoying are still there, even if the beast is killed.

Line of sight - no. A model can move into contact and engage an enemy, even if it couldn't see it at the start of it's activation.

Ah ok ! It's clear like this. Actually i didn't understand the relation of cause to effect between "disabled" and "continues to gain stamina".
So the cloud remains on table until the end of the game.

Thanks for the answers Mike.
I like this game more and more... :)

Not quite - the model remains on the table and keeps gaining stamina (and thus releasing clouds of smoke). The effect is pretty much the same though  :)