The World Of Twilight

The Casani have recieved a plethora of mentions on the site thus far... and since my own Larigal is on the Casani/Central Empire borderlands I think a thread of general enquiry may be in order.  ;)

The following we know about the Casani;
- They are part of the Empire
- They occupy most of the area south of the great lakes
- They are quite culturally separate
- They might have been fighting the Devanu without the Empire's help anyway at the time of liberation
- In the pre-Imperial era they had a different religion to the Empire Fubarnii

In my mind I have some interesting possibilities for the Casani.  I don't know that Mike is ready to make any of this canon, but these are my ideas:
The Casani are fairly ethnically distinct from the Central Empire, among other things having a recessive trait of greenish skin.  They are certainly culturally distinct, and still come across as strange to Central Empire Fubarnii despite having taken on some of their customs (out of necessity from being part of the Empire).  I see them as quite mystical, heavily into associating meaning with things and speaking in metaphors, possibly even using sympathetic magic (this is not to say that it works, but they believe it does).  They wear bright colours, which have their own symbolism, and lots of jewellery.  They don't worship the Enarii, except for political reasons.  Whether they believe in them is a different matter.  The Enarii are not the ancestors of the Casani so they have less relevance.   The Casani possibly tend towards Pantheism, nature worship and a general belief in interconnectedness.  They have a good understanding of drugs and medicines.  Outsiders tend to think of them as impractical dreamers, speaking in riddles and nonsense, but actually they do share the general Fubarnii traits of inquisitiveness and scientific exploration, they just approach it in a very different way.  They have at least their own dialect if not their own actual language which lends itself to metaphorical thought.  They  do of course have to speak Empire Fubarnii though a lot of the time.  Their artwork tends to be colourful, symbolic  and more inclined to 2D (the Empire Fubarnii use lots of sculpture and mechanical art).  They therefore have knowledge of pigments and dyes, resources for which are fairly easy to come by in their territory.

I'm quite happy for this to be discussed, quizzed, picked over, questioned and rejected, but would be interested to know what others think.

 

Beth has summed it up quite nicely!

We've chatted about it a few times, but the area is somewhat labeled 'here be dragons' at the moment. I am now wondering what Casani militia would look like, but I know I don't need another project...

Brandlin (no, not the Chief Architect one, the Emperors Cartographer one) hasily scribbles "here be dragons" on a section of ancient map, then looks up and asks "what's a dragon?"

should that be "here be devanu?"

Does this mean that the Casani probably have more in common culturally with Feral Fubarnii than with most of the Empire? Still a bit nebulous at the moment, but it seems that way - Casani seem to be separate, and a culture in their own right, but almost a mid-point between Feral and Empire.

Hmm, probably not.  I don't see the Casani as a midpoint so much as a tangent.  My thinking at the moment is that the Ferals in the Empire region share the same ancient theology about the elemental Old Gods (see the creation myth on the main site), but then haven't necessarily adopted the Enarri, whereas the Casani even have their own creation myths.  The Casani may even have their own Ferals of a sort, though there is a very different relationship to them.  Basically the ferals are fubarnii who chose to keep a nomadic lifestyle, and I imagine all the Casani stayed nomadic for longer than those in the Empire region.

Are there any technological or structural differences? How much of a problem are Devanu in Casaniland compared to eh Central Empire?

Yes and yes, but these have been smoothed out over time since the formation of the Empire.  Traditionally they would have had different technical specialities - I imagine the Casani actually being very good at glass, and the Central Empire importing a lot of their distinctive glasswork.  As I mentioned, dyes, medicines and other botanical technology would be well developed by the Casani.  Iron and steel are the province of the Delgon, though obviously the Empire do use these as well, but certain specialised metal technologies originated in Delgon regions.  The Empire's speciality is probably mechanisms; gears, wheels, timing devices etc.  All cultures have pottery, textiles, woodwork and other such crafts, but took them in entirely different directions according to their culture and geographical resources, so all are distinctive and used for different purposes.
In short, the whole continent basically has access to any of the technology, but how much it costs and how well local labour is trained in it varies from region to region.
Political structure is much looser in the Casani territories, or at least more confusing.  The Empire gave up trying to establish clan territories and just split the Casani into two administrative districts.  The Casani are largely uninterested in these, and identify themselves according to their own system.  But when having dealings with the Central Empire there are these two councils to deal with taxation, protection, trade agreements etc.
Yers, Devanu are still something of a problem, though there are other clans between them and the Argoran wastes where the Devanu have been mostly exiled to. The Empire Knights keep them at bay, as is their job.  The Casani military is, well, different.  Maybe they have more stealth tactics such as sniping, trapping and poisons.  I don't see them just bashing people over the head with maces.  It's just not subtle.

Hmm, Mikes already suggested on a FOD thread how Casani architecture may differ slightly from some of the other empire areas and with the new ideas of how Casani artisanship differs - I imagine them to have quite a distinctive, decorative style to more commonplace items. I imagine that their armour is of a similiar type to the rest of the empire, but more decorated, possibly more elaborate.

It's difficult for me not to think of these guys as the renaissance italians of the empire!

I'm thinking that most of their craftsmanship would be of a similiar function to the rest of the empire, but more ornate or of a more artistic style (as opposed to a functional style).

I think maybe the Casani prefer simpler, bolder, brighter designs than are generally favoured by the Empire. If anything they would sit in my mind as similar to African tribes, but don't let that limit your ideas too much!

I imagine architecture to vary as much across Anyaral as it does across Europe and parts of Asia. I could imagine the Casani having structures like those seen in Tunisia/Star Wars. They are probably a bit less worried about sunlight than their Northern brethren, but would still generally stay indoors during the day.

I guess, thinking with my wargamer's hat on, the question is how this all affects them militarity? They clearly don't have the Delgon issue at all (possibly the odd emissiary, but the likelihood of any force getting that far south must be minute), and probably have a better relationship to the Ferals than the central empire.

So tbh, their military is if anything going to be less focused on inter-fubarnii combat and more on Devanu-killing?

To be fair Jubal, I don't think any of the empire military is mobilised for an all-out war with the Delgon (yet?). At the moment I think there are just skirmishes going on near the borders and the odd raid here and there. But I think you're right that there might be the odd black priest wandering around Casani - but the biggest priority for the militia and knights would be keeping the Devanu bottled up in the Argoran wastes.

Ok. If the Casani are a sorta equivalent to African tribes, that would make the Argoran wastes sorta the Sahara? I may have to use white and blue for Casani armour, lol! March or die, Beau Fubarnii!!

The "military" aka the knights certainly aren't, I imagine some of the militia in the northern Empire are already on something of a war footing though with all the raiding that's been going on. It's not just the delgon though; it feels very much from the fluff as if generally the Casani will ahve had less expence of intra-racial warfare (much less of a clan system so no clan wars, porbably better relationship with ferals too). I may be totally wrong of course; that's just the impression I got.

You might be right about that, then. My take on the Casani was that it wasn't LESS of a clan system, just different - not sure quite how though, even a semi-tribal system is much like the Fubarnii clans. Judging from what Bethar has said, I imagine the Casani don't do clan wars quite how they're done in the North! Probably a big ritualistic show up front, lots of shouting and no-one getting hurt, meanwhile someone slips round the back and slips poison in the troublemakers drink!
The winners probably gain prestige for how quietly and unobtrusively they deal with the opposition!

I'm not too sure how often the Casani fight each other... it's possible (maybe even likely) they have lots of little inter-tribe skirmishes, but that hasn't been documented yet (which basically means I reserve the right to retract anything I say regarding details of the Casani...)! I think they do have plenty of little skirmishes - far more than are generally seen in the bulk of the empire. They see the devanu quite differently as well - very much a force of nature. Young Casani from some tribes may go out in bands to try and kill a Devanu as a right of passage, and this is possibly how things have been since before the Empire was formed. They may have been visited by priests, but I expect the priests would be very confused as to who they were meant to be talking to and may have left thinking their message was delivered having only spoken to one or two petty chieftains, or just the nominal clan heads (who have very little actual power within the tribes).
Don't take too much of that as fact though, but it may eventually turn out to be...

There haven't actually been many skirmishes between the Delgon and Fubarnii just yet. The priests have delivered their warnings, and there have been reports of one or two substantial attacks on villages of neighbouring clans but it is not war yet. The Emperor is however worried and has been pulling knights back towards Gar Loren and ignoring many requests for aid. The Knights still have standing orders never to get involved in intra-fubarnii conflicts, but that doesn't mean all knights obey those orders (besides, some militia would have enuk riders that could be represented in game by knights if you so desire).

you are so going to need mass combat rules... and smaller bases ;)

and i am so going to say i told you so :p ;)

N'aww, just get bigger tables. It'll be fine.  ;)

With all the "they're not at war yet" messages, I'm still slightly worried that at some point Mike will pop up with a message telling us that the Delgon have decided not to fight the Fubarnii after all and actually everything's going to be okay. And the Devanu are baking a cake for Roban's birthday.  :P

Yup, I'm considering just specialising in novelty dollhouses instead. The 'Devanu with cake' will be one of the first releases, closely followed by 'Roban with birthday hat'.

Don't worry, it doesn't seem likely that the Delgon will go to all the effort of building a small army and then not bother to use it. The Delgon only build a tool if they see a purpose for it. The Empire build the tool first, then wonder what to do with it, then lose it at the back of the shed. The Casani are probably still using tools designed by their ancestors that have been handed down through the generations and have a strong inherent history to them. They probably also look prettier than tools built by either the Delgon or the central empire...

The Delgon are very Roman really, aren't they? Similar reliance on large blocks of heavy infantry, emphasis on practicality and making funny Greek (or in this case, Imperial) inventions useful. There's even one with a tower shield now!  :)

I'll be interested to see any Casani when they appear though, definitely.

Kinda Roman I guess. I had never thought of them like that, but it makes some sense I suppose! That certainly wasn't deliberate though, although I did have images of roman style formations for armies of Delgon...
It was either Beth or Tom who recently told me that they think of the Delgon as Scottish, which is even more random!

Funny, I think of the Central Empire as being more Roman.  You know HedonismBot from Futurama?  I expect the Emperor's court gets a bit like that.

I tended to think of the empire as being a bit mediaeval european, but the roman idea works. The Romans were great innovators and engineers - they may not have invented everything they used, but they could see a use in an invention. A lot of the things we think of as being typically Roman probably weren't to begin with; I read somewhere that Carthage had aqueducts and plumbing, the jury is still out on whether they got them first and the Romans 'borrowed' them, however!
I do like the idea of Delgon being scottish, though! I can just see the scene from Highlander with the clan moving out from Eilean Donan castle along the causeway, being led by their priest - just got Delgon all in there now!! Lol!  ;)

The central Empire are too innovative and impractical to be Romans. The defining features of Rome really were their heavy infantry army, their centralised but highly political command system (this the Fubarnii do have) and their ability to take the inventions of others and make them practically useful. Most Roman inventions had been created long before by Greeks or Carthaginians who didn't really have the social and military capability to take full advantage of them. Which reminds me greatly of the Delgon adopting Beru's Derak design, for example.

Of course, ultimately the Empire is the Empire and the Delgon are the Delgon; drawing real-world parallels to little nocturnal guys with beaks and hooves will only ever get so far...  :P

WANT!!! At least a sketch, if not a sculpt. :D

I think I mentioned before that I think the Empire are the anti-Romans!  They're great at coming up with cool new ideas, but rubbish at large-scale implementation of them. Much more like the Greeks than the Romans, in that respect.

not to be too political but the societal differences to me sound more like Capitalism vs communism.

Or more like freedom, chaos, choice, lack of control, individuality, dispersed rule vs centralised, state/church controlled, widespread systems and beliefs, conformity.

Actually the Empire can be quite authoritarian.  They might value thinking outside the box when it comes to new inventions, and accept that their engineers are a little eccentric, but actually there is a lot of social conformity and hierarchy, particularly in the capital.

In the capital I'd expect so, but in Larigal, Majorn Anis, the Argoran territories or the Casani regions one suspects that goings-on in the capital rarely have much effect - as indeed was the case with the Roman Empire, which could sometimes go through several Emperors without the provinces being affected much at all.

i agree with bethar and jubal - but is that very different from the idea we have of capitalism in the west - we still have central legislatures and enforcement in the west... i saw social conformity as bethar puts it more as social and moral norms and expectations rather than laws and central diktats.

I agree. Also from what Mike mentioned about the clan system, it looks as though the individual clans might have a major role in setting up and enforcing laws and legislation within their own territory, and as part of an advisory council at the top levels of the empire, but the cultural conformity is already established within Fubarnii society. I should imagine that the cultural differences between Delgon, central Empire and Casani are there, but very slight; the biggest differences will be of the political and legislative kind.

Bethar and I are not natural capitalists, and are left blinking and trying to understand what you mean...

Perhaps Capitalism / Communism only muddies the waters. Neither are synonymous with either libertarianism and decentralisation or authoritarianism and centralisation.

I'm not a natural capitalist either. The problem is, "capitalism" is an extremely misapplied term. Capitalism is an economic term, not a political one and it's not really fubarnii. My take on things is that fubarnii see the acquisition of wealth, power, prestige as the same thing, but it's about acquiring a better standing within the clan and acquiring a better standing for the clan within the empire, not about a personal gain (although being known as someone that furthered a clan's efforts would reflect very favourably on that person). Politically, I think the empire is sort of in the middle ground between a confederation and a satrapy (Persian Empire), in that Clan leaders have a lot of power within their own territory, and probably a fair amount of power collectively, as an advisory council to the Emporer. I like the Persian Empire model, even though the clan leaders are definately not satraps, as on a military level, there are state troops (knights) and regional troops (militia).


Again, I think these are all terms for an economic system, not a political system.

I see the Fubarnii as being as politically and economically... confused, I guess, as ourselves. One suspects that in some areas the clan element is extremely strong, whereas possibly for more central clans where the Emperor has a lot of power this has started to decrease in favour of a more individualistic and less clan-based society and economy. The traders are really the proponents of a more capitalist model and try to make sure they can trade freely and without restraint across Anyaral. That said, the clan element is very strogn where it is strong and it's probably only as the traders and knights have gained power independently of clans that it's begun to erode anywhere (in the same way that the introduction of a western european governmental model broke apart the traditional clan structures of native Americans).

So in that sense I guess it could be that the clan can be considered the "original" unit of Fubarnii culture (in the same way it was with humans in many areas) and as different political systems leave their mark and are spread by traders and knights (the former more than the latter, since I can't imagine knights are trained with free thought in mind) then different ideas and systems are beginning to emerge in different areas.

One suspects that any sort of liberal or left-wing politics isn't very obvious to Fubarnii of any sort; in the clan systems it's frowned upon socially, in the Central Empire the Emperor would make darned sure that nobody advocated any funny ideas about "voting" or "freedom", and in the Delgon everything is very simply Gods > Priests > Minions (the fact that the Gods exist leaves little room for theistic rebellion, and makes the "Prove that this is how God wants it to be" argument against Theocracy MUCH easier. I can't imagine it hasn't cropped up, but it may take a particular spark for it to gain any traction anywhere.

Hmm, don't think so, the native Americans still have a strong clan structure. What broke their system apart was the near genocide of the native Americans by the western governmental model. The clan structure was a stable political structure that worked extremely well for the native Americans, lol!
I'm confused by your use of "freedom" in this context - the fubarnii individually and as a society are free; they have free-will, self-determination and the ability to move socially (improve their social position within society). The fubarnii are just more family and clan centred than individually centred (which is more of a genetic disposition than a learned response) - if a fubarnii put his personal acquisition of wealth ahead of his family, they would think he was mentally ill (which he would be, for a fubarnii). I don't think the Emperor is too bothered by "funny ideas" - there are slightly different clan systems throughout the empire and he rules over them all as the head of a confederacy of clan states.

I think knights have a lot more free thought than you imagine, as they are the Emperors ambassador's to the various cities and clans - they spend most of their time in politics and peacemaking between the clans, and only a fraction fighting Devanu. I also think you're wrong about the traders - it's in their family interests that things remain stable and, in fact, they have done more for homogenising the language and society across the Empire than almost any other group.

That was the case in the north, with the British and French settlers. Mesoamerica and South America had rather different stories to tell; the Spanish introduction of a westernised model essentially promoted competition in societies where the idea of individual property (as opposed to clan ownership) was utterly alien. It was this that allowed the spanish to break up Aztec and Inca culture with realtively small numbers of settlers; they used their cultural ideas to split up the nations and for the first time turn the clans in on each other. The genocide in the north was, agreed, very much done by the westerners but in the Spanish regions a lot of the death came from the civil wars that occurred as clans were split between spanish-promoted leaders benefiting from trade and individual capitalism and their traditional tribal background.

I don't think it is a genetic disposition; with humans it's very much a cultural thing with Western Europe having led the way in terms of individualism while other groups had an extremely family-based structure and culture which would be considerably more alien to us. In terms of freedom, the Fubarnii only have freedom of social movement to an extent; I can't imagine a Fubarnii from a poor background would be allowed to move up the ranks to a guild leader or courtier! While there may not be a universal respect for the wealthy and aristocrats, the Fubarnii don’t have any systems in place to specifically allow social mobility, such as a state schooling system or any form of redistributive taxation (and in real terms systems of that ilk are very much required to prevent skills and wealth accumulating in particular families). There’s also the issue of taxes; the Fubarnii must have to pay tax, probably relatively heavy tax, to pay for the clan and state expenditure. At the state level there will be civc buildings to maintain, clan leaders to feed (be interesting to know how clan leaders get their status – hereditary?), and of course equipping the militia. Fubarnii are also paying taxes to support the Emperor’s own expenditure (and I’m sure he lives pretty well) and the Knights at the same time. I can’t imagine that some more unruly Fubarnii in the less war-torn states haven’t come up with the bright idea of wanting to secede and thus save themselves that upper tier of expenditure (whereas the frontiers are of course more loyal, as was the case with the Roman Empire, due to the necessity of the troop presence). And then of course Fubarnii have no democracy; the Emperor is the Emperor because of family ties essentially, and his word is law. I suspect the Emperor hasn’t been bothered by “funny ideas”, but if at some point in the future they lead to a clan refusing to pay some taxes or even a few small riots in a major city one suspects that he might.

True, but they are brought up from Jenta to be the Emperor’s representatives, and generally all systems of that nature include having respect for the Emperor and the established system firmly dinned in (one is reminded of Janissaries). I’m sure they can be very clever and even-handed as diplomats, but thinking beyond the social structure and political systems they know would probably barely occur to them. As for traders, their first interest and the thing that their lifestyle is designed towards is making money. That, in itself, probably tends to lead to a certain anti-authority streak since authority, by and large, is what takes money away (and spends it on nice fancy palaces and those rather dashing plumes Knight Captains get). I’m not saying that the Traders are a hotbed of political heresy, far far from it, but I expect that some of them will take a serious interest in new ideas.

I see your points, but I still feel that you are thinking in terms of capitalism - that land, labour, material and products all have a monetary value and that a persons wealth is in purely monetary terms. There probably is a system of taxation, but I doubt if it is as high as you think, and it's probably levied on external clans. I do not feel that fubarnii have an idea of land ownership per se; I think that the clan controls the land within it's boundaries, that each fubarnii has a right to work an amount of land according to their status/size of family. Within the clan, the members produce enough to fulfill their needs, any surplus is traded for items they can't produce, or for profit as a 3rd option. This owes more to the mercantile economic system than the capitalist one, but not entirely - by removing some of the ideas that land and labour have a monetary value, it's going a little way towards a socialist model. To a fubarnii clan; material, produce and size have a prestige value, but only traded surplus has a monetary value, and can be taxed.

The modern western european system grew out of feudalism with a strict sense of a god-given right for one group to be of a higher social ranking than another, thus ruling them. I think in a clan-based system, there is more social movement, but fubarnii will think in terms of the long view - it may take several generations of a family to rise up the social ladder within a clan, accruing as much power and prestige to enable this to happen. Clan leaders are chosen because of the power and prestige that they and their family hold; if they lose the power and prestige they're likely to be replaced. The emperor is the leader of the most powerful clan in Gar-Loren and the empire; if a catastrophe happened and the emperors clan lost that prestige and power, I think we'd see a new emperor on the throne (highly unlikely though). It's not the Emperors word that is law - it's his clans power and influence - he can only rule by getting the clan leaders to agree with him (which they would if they had less power than he did), and he'd be very foolish to issue edicts that he knew none of the clan leaders would support.

But the clans are huge; what you seem to be saying is that clans have an essentially non-monetary internal economy. Fubarnii clans are the size of small countries, so I can't see that working at all well. I agree on the land ownership, though that I would guess is due to relatively sparse population rather than a socialist ideal; there's probably plenty of land for everyone, particularly if many farms are underground (fungi). I think that there must be a decent amount of intra-clan trade, though; the scale of the clans would make it difficult for there not to be without the clan system being very heavily ordered and collectivist. Also, of course, prestige in the system you’ve outlined only really takes the place of wealth in pure capitalism; those with greater prestige get more goods and materials, live in bigger homes, and so have more prestige…

I’m sure that taxes must be quite high, too; I can’t see any way that they could not be, to support an Empire that size with a significant military force required due to the Devanu in all provinces and most major population centres.

In clan systems there’s rarely much more social movement, and sometimes there’s even less. Families can move up or down given many generations, but it takes a hell of a lot to be able to do so. The simple fact is that Jenta from more prominent families will be able to be better taught and trained than those from less prominent ones, and thus will be better equipped to hold the reins of power for the next generation. I’m sure Emperors can lose power – I think that Carcharoth has said that it’s happened on occasion. On the other hand, there’s no call for him to necessarily take account of the clan leaders; the fact that he personally commands a large fighting force stationed in all their regions gives him a total monopoly of power across his clans (I am not saying that he’d attack them, of course, but if he needed to raise taxes for a new regiment of Knights and they disagreed then the threat of removing his knights would bring them sharply into line).

Do we know how the Traders interlink with the Clan system anyway? I suspect we’re fast hitting the stage where we need some more information from on high…

Fun though this speculation is, I think you're quite right on this; we could debate these points until we're blue in the face and still not reach a satisfactory answer (the sex thread springs to mind! Lol!). I suspect Tom and Mike have answered some of these problems already, maybe they're chuckling on the sidelines at the sheer inventiveness of our fiction, Lol!!

This is great!  Before I know it, you'll have written Fubarnii 101 Chapter 4 for me.
Regarding freedom and social class, an idea we came up with a while ago was the creche system used in the Empire, which I've been taking as canon for so long without actually explaining it that perhaps I should take it out, give it a shake and see what you think of it.
The idea is that in Gar Loren, and to a lesser extent elsewhere in the Empire, all the young are brought up in a creche that is strictly stratified according to social class.  This is not as crazy as you might think - unlike humans who bond and form strong attachment to their own offspring, Fubarnii have always been in the position of often having to bring up the children of another wife.  They also don't have internal gestation, so from the moment the child is conceived, the mother could in theory walk off and let someone else deal with it.  It is simply an extension of the idea of "family" to allow the state to bring up your children.  I'm not saying it's natural or healthy, indeed some of the more rural clans think it's abhorrent, but when you get a high-density population and encouragement for loyalty to the Emperor (the head of your "family" in an extreme sense) you can see how it could happen.
The jenta are brought up and educated by sempa whose job is to work in the creche.  They get a great deal of socialisation, are taught a broad range of skills, and their upkeep is paid for by the state.  When a tradesman needs an apprentice, he can go to the creche and choose a likely jenta; creche staff will know who has the best aptitude for his trade, and with a few well placed bribes he can easily secure a good worker or, if he prefers, a jenta who takes his fancy as a potential wife.  It is not unusual for apprentices to end up marrying their masters.  The apprentice, once she reaches sempahood, does of course have the choice whether to marry, but not doing so might leave her short of other options.
A tradesman (or soldier, or courtier, or creche worker) would belong to a certain class and could only take an apprentice from the same class level (unless they could afford a particularly large bribe).  Maybe from a class either side in exceptional circumstances.  Incest is not a problem so parentage doesn't need to be carefully tracked, though it probably is at the upper tiers as ancestry could give some prestige.  In Gar Loren there are many tiers, the top one being reserved for the Emperor and his family.  The next tier down is likely to be for courtiers, high ranking soldiers and so forth.  In other cities there may only be two or three tiers, and some more distant places won't have tiers at all.  Outside the central Empire, families are less likely to bother with creches, though in Gar Loren it is compulsory, as it help keep the Emperor's line 'pure'.
Strict role boundaries are not new to Fubarnii.  Because they can change from sempa to kopa, it makes it more, not less, important for boundaries to be clear, and this means gender roles are very strict.  As a harem society hierarchies are extremely important.
The Delgon don't have a creche system, but there will be other strictures on their social relationships.

So in fact far from state education breaking down social ossification, it strengthens it. Interesting.

Does this run right across the Empire? One might imagine that further out areas, Casani Tribes or rural clans would just bring their children up themselves anyway - Jenta couldbe useful to help on the farms and so on. It sounds like the sort of thing that runs well in the central Empire and some big cities but breaks down rather in the countryside...

Yep.  Coincidentally, I was reading a paper on career theory the other day that said this is what happens in Britain - schools essentially prepare their students for the type of job they might expect for their social class.  It was an old paper, I don't know to what extent it is still true.

Exactly, it's an urban thing, more pronounced the closer you get to the capital.  I don't imagine the Casani use this system at all. 

That was a very enjoyable read - it makes me smile to see such knowledgeable (or at least knowledgeable sounding) people arguing over the details of Fubarnii social structures! I need to think carefully before I answer too much though, or I'll just make myself look foolish...

Oh, I dunno Mike. Jubal and I were discussing 2 opposing viewpoints where 80-90% of our arguments were sheer speculation. I think we both rather enjoyed it - was certainly stimulating, lol!

Fascinating idea of the creche system, Bethar - almost a form of meritocracy, where the more hard-working or skilled you are, the more likely you'll be to be placed in a high status position within your class. For most of the population, a higher status clan isn't a birthright, more a case of which you're adopted into?

I have a feeling that this was one of the arguments for school league tables. I think it probably was at least partially true - it also depended on the school; the better (more elitist) the school, the more chance you had to move up a social class. I imagine there might be competition for some sempa to place their eggs with a better creche (possibly the closer to the centre of Gar-Loren you get, the more elitist the creche gets).

fixed that for ya mike :)

I shouldn't laugh.

No, no, really - I shouldn't.

Dammit no, I won't laugh.

 :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

I'd read it as the stratification very much was by birthright... hm.

And yes, the entire thing was incredibly speculative. Was fun though. :)

Given the creche system, clan loyalty might not be quite like we think of it, at least not in the central empire. Might be a bit like working for a big corporation that you also hold a few shares in. Does anyone know if theres a special term for firms like John Lewis, where the staff own the shares in the company?

Some ramblings from when I was on the train earlier... Apologies for them being quite so rambling and I'm sure I've missed lots...

The empire varies a lot across the continent of anyaral. When describing culture and architecture I have generally focussed on the central empire, which I think of as covering those clans closest to gar loren. I'm not sure if that is an official term, but those clans certainly think a themselves as being a bit better than the more distant clans...
Beth has described a bit about the creche system, and it is in those central clans that that is most noticeable. It does to some extent enforce stratification of society, but young jenta who prove to be particularly adept are sometimes apprenticed outside the roles their creche would naturally put them into.

There is money within the empire. I'm not sure exactly what it looks like, but I could imagine the fubarnii being able to string it together somehow to make it easy to carry. Noble families within the major cities would see wealth as important, and would probably claim ownership of land within cities. Outside cities ownership of land would carry quite a responsibility, particularly in areas with devanu issues.
Taxes are dealt with at a clan level, but the clans are expected to pay their duties to the emperor. All clans must provide young jenta to join the knights as well as taxes in other forms to maintain the smooth running of the empire. I think jubal is right to assume those are relatively high. The fubarnii of the central empire sometimes grumble at paying to protect the distant clans, while the distant clans grumble at paying for luxuries for the emperor in the distant big cities, but the taxes are low enough not to cause much unhappiness as long as the devanu are largely kept at bay.

There have been times in the past where clans have upset the emperor and the knights have been withdrawn. The consequences were dire for the clans and they eventually rejoined the empire (albeit with increased taxes for future generations to cover the additional expenses of clearing out entrenched devanu nests etc).

All knights tend to speak quite a distinctive dialect as they are brought up very much as a family from jenta through to retirement. Most knights remain with the military even after they have been retired, but some will find a quiet place to retire, or lend their services to militia or even mercs.
I'm not sure at tom's comment that there are no other languages - some of the more distant clans do have their own languages, but the knights have done a lot to ensure that pretty much everybody can speak the language of the emperor.

Knights have a very strict remit never to get involved in inter-clan conflicts - this was not always the case and that caused a problem early after the formation of the empire. Maybe I'll detail that at some point, but for the moment the important factor is that if clans decide to attack each other then the knights will never get involved. They may be commanded to withdraw their services if a clan is found to be overstepping its bounds or behaving badly, but that is all.
I'm not sure what knights would do about bandits, but generally I think they would avoid getting involved and would leave that problem to the local militia.

On the economy... Land ownership varies between clans. The emperor leaves that to the clan councils to decide, and that depends a lot on the specific history of the clans, as well as what sort of use they have for land above ground.

And at Brandlin...  :P

A bottle top brigade - figues verses the paint pots. Who will win?

Nicely done