The World Of Twilight

Seen as we've got a shiny new forum, it seems only right to show you what I've been working on... I can't promise I'll post WIP shots of everything, but here's something for you to have a look at!

(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/Xrgut/May10a.jpg)
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/Xrgut/May10.jpg)

The model on the left is a heavy cavalry character for the Empire. He's been stationed up near the Delgon border. I'm not sure about the size of the lance, so now is the time to tell me what you think! There is lots still to do on both him and his mount. I think I'll also do him a mace as a secondary/alternate weapon.

The other model is the first heavy infantry for the Delgon. The shield will get some iconography on it and he'll get at least one alternately posed companion, but it would be good to hear your thoughts. I know that the pick might not be the best weapon for tower-shield armed infantry, but I like it and I'm sticking with it  ;D
D'oh, just realised that you can hardly see the pick in the photos... Sorry!

Let me know what you think! If you are nice and useful then I might keep showing WIP shots in the future...

oooooh I like the heavy cavalry!  I am however not so sure on the lance......I'm wondering if maybe heavy maces would look better to further help differentiate between regular knights?

Are the heavy cavalry the elite elite?  If so would they be a bit more arrogant and have a bit more flair, decoration and such?  ???

The infantry dude is cool too, I love the shield.  Can't really see the pick, but could be dangerous hiding behind shield and waving pick over the top   :)

Flair, decoration and such? That's coming! Hence the WIP status  ;)
The plan is to do two arm options for him, one with a lance and one with a mace. I might also do a loose mace that can hang off the saddle while he is using his lance.

Lance looks spot on for me.

Are the Delgon into mining etc in a big way. Cant help but see that shield being used as a blast screen when its paired with a pick.  Looks fitting. Do some sappers with blast shields ;-)

The lance is good, I'd make it the head a little smaller though. It looks just a teensy bit oversized at the moment.

"whoooooa, look at the size of my lance!" am ithe only one thinks that looks too big? very hefty... needs a big mass on the back to balnce and muct be to scale... 6 metres? loving the saddle cloth and the enuk hood though... is the hood armour?

I like the tower shield on the delgonite (delgonian? person from delgon), but the pick put my Bunkum detector into overdrive! ;)  I wont argue if you're not budging though just make a spear sprue for me.

As to the iconography, I know that you want to create a 'feel' for the figures to tie them into the world, but I think you might be better off making the shields blank, and allowing people to do what they like with them.  Certainly i would prefer a canvas to design on than fixed raised symbols.


just my 2p.

Wow, looking good! Agree that the lance looks a wee bit large. Perhaps altering the head would help. I always thought that putting a spear-type head on a lance was a bit silly - what you need is a long fairly thin spike securely fastened to the rest of the lance, something that'll punch through armour like a needle through cloth, not something that spreads the force across a broader area. Again, just my 2p worth. And I do like the Infantry guy - I'd be tempted to paint him up in blue armour, put a face-mask on the helmet and give him a truncheon instead of a pick, lol!

and a clear perspex shield?

Thanks for the constructive comments!
I've been wondering about the size of the lance - possibly images of jousting lances have coloured my perceptions of what a combat lance should look like. That is one of the reasons I wanted to do an early preview as there is still plenty of opportunity to change it. Should it be shorter?
The hood will be armour, but needs work. 
I've got a bunch of the shield blanks cast already and they'll be separate to the models so I might do a couple of different shield sprue options.

@Alan: I figured you might query the picks! Somehow they felt right to me as weapons for taking down enemy fubarnii - using the shield to initially defend against projectiles, then pushing in close where the enemy's spears would be more unwieldy. The sharp pick would find cracks in armour easily, and might actually punch through the standard Fubarnii armour that is design for deflecting teeth and claws rather than metal weapons. There may be flaws in that logic (possibly it would be better combining a small shield with the light weapon), but there is the other argument that Delgon soldiers don't tend to get much choice over what weapons they use... :)

On an aside... I've done some blank round Empire shields that I'm going to sculpt designs on. How would people find them most useful? Should I do a few different designs on each sprue, or should each sprue consist of a single design? I'm not sure if the latter option would really be practical as the mould costs would probably be prohibitive and I'd certainly end up with less shield options that way. Also, would blank shields be useful?

What's wrong with the picks? They may not be the best weapon for use with tower shields, but police seem to manage alright with truncheons which have a similar attack motion...

I don't think it's the lance's length really, though it could be a little shorter. For me it's just that the head looks big...

As for shields, you could do one sprue of different designs and one sprue of blanks (thinking the Empire and Delgon shields here equally). Someone like Brandlin or Ben B or the other good painters will prefer the blank shields, but as for people like me who can't paint for toast, having designs that we can just colour in is pretty useful really.

well in earth terms (noting that that doesn't apply to anyaral in anything other than the ways mike wants it to) tower shields are used to form a defensive wall which you sit behind and stab through the gaps or over , keeping your enemy at a distances.

I really like the pick - (or warhammer) its good to see  - it was usually used against heavily armoured oponents as the thin spiked head was good for concentrating force into a small point tan therefore bothe puncturing plate and bursting open the rings on chain mail.

Its just the combination that seems a little odd. TO human earth bound eyes.

Its fubarnii on anyaral - there might be huge cultural or religious siignificance to the combination in delgon??

@ jubal - yes but the police are not usually trying to kill you and public opinion is somewhat against arming them with anything long and pointy!

@jubal again - oooh ooooh you put me in the good painters ctaagory... i am sooo out of my depth their - competent maybe. actually i was tinking i'd make decals for flat shields rather than paint them, I guess as in all things, giving people optiongs satisfies most but also costs. ultimately i'm ok with either

Who actually used tower shields bar the Romans and cops, anyway? Did the Almogavars use them? I can potentially see that it makes more sense to use them with a stabbing weapon, but any weapon with a short action (picks have a comparatively short swing compared to a longsword or morning star) would still work I guess.

Next to me, everyone is in the good painters category.  ;)

I love the square shield, and the knight!

However, would it be viable to use brass rod for the spear? It may not be ideal for mass production, but I might try and use it for my own models because of the rigidity compared to a long, thin bit of pewter...

so the heavy cav is a character? Any chance of getting a photo besides a regular knight?

It's really nice to see these WIPs, but you're sculpting quicker than I paint ::)

Thinking about the Infantry combination, the ancient Persians had a lot of infantry armed with that combination - a pick (albeit with a smaller head) and a large rectangular (wicker or basketwork) shield. Said shield also had a support on the back so that it could be set up like a barricade or line of pavises in front of a unit.

(http://www.tracks-n-troops.com/shop/images/zvezda/ZVE8006.jpg)

(http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/0001cimbri.jpg)

If anything, the Persian shields were bigger than the ones Mikes showing us.

The lance in my view is about the right thickness but maybe a tad too long? (The thickness will survive the shipping better.... spent two hours straightening out spears that wanted to become pretzels - I mean it's a valid choice mine you, don't get me wrong).

The picks action doesn't blend with the shield - the pick is a fast weapon while the Tower shield is more of a object in itself ie. A spear or something would better the design. It would marry up better with a more anti mount weapon or paired up with a range weapon user. Actually pairing the pick up with a second  and having a fast light twined attacking until would be great.

Of Course I am buying what ever comes our way.



Lord Abaddon of Wormwood

Well ya took a perfectly acceptable compliment i was chuffed about and then just whisked it away agin ...sigh!


American is getting further away faster than I paint. I really should daub a couple of these twilight figures mike gave me before anyone spots i'm hanging around here and haven't painted or played twilight yet!

It's not only me!

I played at Salute (and lost  ;D), and have assembled the figures I've bought, but haven't even basecoated them.

'twasn't what I meant... I'm just in awe of everyone's skill round here, being the definite jenta of the forum as I am.

Love the shield-delgon! Pick, or no pick, I'll deffo buy a bunch for my growing Delgon force! :D

Love the Delgon heavy infantry... guess I will have to break down & collect a Delgon force too.. not that it would take much arm-twisting  ;)  I think the war-pick is great.  Adds to the feeling of cultural difference between Delgon & Empire.

I do agree the lance is a bit long.  Have you considered maybe something more exotic? Maybe a forked spear similar in shape to a tuning fork could be fun.

Hi Sikil and Laughing Ferret, welcome!
Just a quick update here, and a couple more quick pics...
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/Xrgut/May10c.jpg)
(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/Xrgut/May10b.jpg)
I've also included the delgon trooper to show the pick a bit more clearly.

liking that lance better - smaller head and plenty of counterbalance under his arm ... :thumbup:

no sold on the pick, but i can't fault the sculpting... you get a good feel for the mass of the shield and his weapon the way he is standing!

Yep, liking the lance!
He looks like he has more ornate armour too at the back  :)
Lovin it!

The Delgon soldier looks great too   :)

Looking good - not only more ornate armour, but arm, leg and hoof armour as well! Perhaps the Enuk needs to be a little more armoured too - a chest/neck plate at least?

and some stirrups? ;)

I have been wondering about stirrups... Vaguely wondering if they could have some sort of heel stirrups, or doing something that looks more 'normal', but it's a challenge to get them looking right!

The Enuk will get more armour, I just haven't figured out how much yet.

The ornate armour is currently on his back plates. I'm not sure whether to carry that forward onto his other bits of armour, or whether to keep those smooth with designs more akin to those on Brenar and the other knights. I will eventually cover up some of the ornate armour with a suitable plume, but I'll need to feel brave when I do that!

If you extended the quilted saddle into a sort of caparison to just below the knights hooves, instead of stirrups, you could put a little step coming out from it? You could maybe extend it round to the front of the Enuk, even bezainting the front part for added protection!

Looks good so far, but few comments:

- Would love to see more detailed helmet on Fubarnii rider.  Elite of the Elite should have more than just a leather cap ;)
- Is the Fubarnii rider a little big?  Hard to tell without him being next to a knight, maybe it's his armour, but he looks a bit big.

- The Pick in the Delgon's left hand looks ok, someone suggested a warhammer which would probably look a litle better because it would have a longer shaft.

- Have you ever considered Delgon or Fubarnii with lucerne hammers? 

Keep it comming, looks good so far.

hmmm a 'warhammer' does look like a pick so i'm not sure what you mean by those comments?

Alsoa lucern hammer was a 2 handed polearm 2m plus long, so again i'm not sure i understand...

Thanks for the comments.  :)

Yup, he'll definitely get more than a leather cap. I expect it'll end up looking quite similar to Brenar's helmet.

The Fubarnii rider is actually about the right size - he's about the same size as a herder/militia, but a bit smaller than Brenar. He does look rather big on the enuk though due to the added bulk of his armour (and the fact that Fubarnii always look rather big compared to the poor enuk mounts...).

I went for quite a short haft on the pick to make it look comfortably like it could be wielded in one hand. A longer shafted warhammer would certainly need two hands to control, which would make the shield combo less effective.

Lucerne hammers? I've had a quick look at images... What is it that defines the lucerne hammer? The combination of spear, hook and hammer? Do you know much about the history of them, and how they would have been used? I'm guessing at an anti-cavalry role? That could suit the Delgon well as I expect at some point they will expect to be fighting knights...

@Rick: If I dropped the quilting too low then the Enuk would be at risk of ending up very shapeless... Bezainting? If that means texturing and armouring the front then I think we are probably thinking along similar lines.

Bezainting was adding small pieces of hard armour (usually metal, usually discs -"bezaints") over the top of leather armour, to add more protection to it at strategic points, rather than all over it!

Definitely liking the pick, I wouldn't change it to a hammer.

The lucern hammer idea is a good one.. yeah they were used in the middle ages, an anti-cavalry weapon.
Perhaps the delgon heavy infantry would have a few of these pole-hammer soldiers attached to them, staying behind their shield wall, so that if cavalry come close, they can be used against them... a fun addition would be to give the lucern hammer a hooked back, rather than spike, like a bill-hook, so they could try to snag & drag a rider from his mount and the heavy infantry could then attack them with their battle picks  :o   Could make a nice opportunity for a militia captain's specialized skill.


For the knight, the armor details & padded barding are looking great.
For stirrups, rather than regular stirrups (which would obscure the fubarnii's cool feet, what about a wood pedal, kind of like a thin bike pedal? it could be 'L' shaped, coming out of the bottom of the padded barding, probably connected by a "Y" shaped leather strap that runs under the barding which connects to the other side's 'Y' shaped leather straps going down the other side .. not that the detail of it would be seen, but fun to know how something works anyway  ;D

Been away for a week - and what do I come back to find :)

That noblis mounted heavy cav knight?? Stunning work, Mike. He is perfect, if you ask me. Can't really see anything I would like to see changed, really. I like it a lot and can't hardly wait to try my painting skills on that one. Looking forward seeing how his companions turns out. Any chance you might show him next to a 'regular' knight when he is done?

And then the Delgon heavy infantry dude. A lot has already been said - especially about his weapon ;D So wouldn't actually add to that - just say I like the pick/tower shield combo wether it's useful in a fight or not.

And last about shield decoration - have you thought about doing a delgon set of water-slide decals instead? With a transfer sheet you could have various designs for the shields - which would help us define the different delgon regions etc - but also give the freehanders a chance to show us their skills.

Excellent stuff on both of them. Like clam I've been away for a while, so to come back and see the Delgon trooper is excellent. Looks like I'll need some of those to protect my Deraks!

Love these-especially the big shields and the picks. Was wondering if we'd see something riding the enuk nobilis too :)

There might even be a unit of nobilis riding heavy cavalry eventually, but that'll be a bit down the line!
Sculpting progress is slow, but I am getting there on both the character and those pick troops :)

Some very quick photos to show that I have been doing something with my time... Sorry they aren't terribly good photos but you get the idea!

(http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh269/Xrgut/June10a.jpg)

(http://forum-of-doom.com/Smileys/default/g.gif)(http://forum-of-doom.com/Smileys/default/g.gif)(http://forum-of-doom.com/Smileys/default/g.gif)

You ruin me  ;D

- but when can he be mine?

Wow.. that's stunning.

I initially thought the lance looked too heavy, but seeing it now I think it looks perfect. I think maybe the wire armature was throwing off my sense of proportion a bit. His pose is also great, I especially love the hand resting on the Enuk's neck. It gives a really nice sense of the bond between mount and rider.

I don't think the pick and shield combination looks terribly wrong. Maybe a spike on the end of the hammer (or even a secondary knife or something) wouldn't go amiss so that they can stab when fighting in close formation (with those big shields there might not be room to swing without bumping into each other) but for sheer armour piercing ability it looks very wicked. I imagine, since the delgon lands are not cavalry-friendly and they haven't suffered as much from the Devanu, they don't think of long weapons and spears as being quite so essential.

Oooh upping the game with the detail I see  ;D  I would increase the thickness of the hand guard on the lance. Not by much though, just enough to give a little more protection to his pinkies (or greenies/brownies).

Now this guy is looking like elite cavalry   :)

Thanks for the positive comments  :)

I'm not yet sure if his armour will end up being fairly typical for the elite cavalry, or if he happens to have some particularly nice armour...

As to when he will get into production, I'm really not sure. I will probably get a few extra masters cast up and offer them here on the forum, which should reduce the waiting time a bit.

Excellent stuff. A bunch of them to lead a mass of cavalry would be welcome.

I'm sure that no matter what path you take - it will be awesome :D


:D

- no let us know when you start taking pre-orders ;)