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Author Topic: Strider Captain stats?  (Read 3669 times)
hithero
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« on: April 01, 2014, 11:19:56 pm »

Are there any rules and stats for the Strider captain available yet? might like to try him out Friday.
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Carcharoth
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« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2014, 09:01:06 am »

Nope, no rules yet... Sorry!
I haven't even got to the stage of playtest rules for him, but I was having fun with the sculpt! You are also the only person in the world with a painted version of him  Smiley
Cadre makes captain a little bit superfluous, although given that Striders are elites, he would need Commander to be able to do very much. He shouldn't be senior to priests though... I think he may just have slightly enhanced stats.
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hithero
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« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2014, 09:12:28 am »

Can Cadre be chain linked then? KalMalog A activates B who activates C etc.  The wording "Activate up to one..." makes it sound like you can't.
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Carcharoth
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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2014, 01:40:16 pm »

All leadership abilities can be chain linked, unless specifically stated (eg authority).
I've always felt there should possibly be a limit to chain length, but never formalised that in the rules. I might do in the new book...
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hithero
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« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2014, 06:07:48 pm »

Ok, but why is there Pack (1) and Pack (2)?  As  they can be chain linked, why is Pack (2) needed?
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TuffSkull
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« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2014, 07:18:06 pm »

Without looking at the rules, and not actually having used them myself yet, I think things like the Grishak Sempa are pack animals, so may be activated by pack (x), but do not have the ability to activate further pack beasts. I might well be wrong on this however- I'll have to check the books later!

Chain linking becomes very powerful when the games become bigger. Those of us who have faced Chris Parry's Grishak Horde on the table know this only too well!
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hithero
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« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2014, 07:34:33 pm »

Without looking at the rules, and not actually having used them myself yet, I think things like the Grishak Sempa are pack animals, so may be activated by pack (x), but do not have the ability to activate further pack beasts. I might well be wrong on this however- I'll have to check the books later!

Chain linking becomes very powerful when the games become bigger. Those of us who have faced Chris Parry's Grishak Horde on the table know this only too well!

All the Grishak have the Pack ability, the Kopa has the Pack (2) which seems to be a new addition to the rules being in the last TT book, before that there were no numbers.  So as all Grishak can activate each other I was wondering what Pack (2) is used for.

As Cadre works in the same way as the Pack ability which doesn't feel right for the Striders using the same system; and they now have a Captain, I'm thinking the KalMalog would be better activated like regular troops and Captain but can only be activated by a model with Cadre.
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TuffSkull
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« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2014, 08:36:21 pm »

Checked the stats and you're quite right, they all have pack(x) so can all activate subsequent grishak making the Kopa's ability a little irrelevent in most situations. The Jenta only has command range 2" compared to the Kopa's 6", but regular Grishak are 6" too, so no joy there. Mike - what are we missing??

I agree with your point on the striders. Now they have a captain figure, it does feel that they should activate via him, even if you give him a very high captain level (8?) so your pack size wont be limited in most situations. He will, however become a must have, and an expensive unit and target if he is the ONLY one who could activate his strider Brethren. 8 regular striders left stranded by a lucky Devanu attack would be a fate worse than death! Striders would change from being the Delgon's first strike unit to a potentially fragile pike to reach out with and attack only when the time is dead right.

Hmm... I appear to have argued against my own initial thought in the process of typing this - I need to think more and type less for a bit!!!
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hithero
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2014, 08:44:55 pm »

LOL I do that all the time Smiley No reason why you can't take more than 1 captain though, up to the player if he wants to go light on officers.
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Carcharoth
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2014, 10:27:59 pm »

Useful discussion!
Don't forget the Grishak kopa and jenta are still at the playtest stage, so very open to adjusting if I think it's necessary...

If I go with limiting the length of a command chain, then pack(2) suddenly doubles the size of an effective group. Without a command chain limit it makes no difference.
Let me try to explain what I mean by limiting the chain length...
The thought with the limit is to limit a command chain to about 4. You could activate lots of models as normal, but there must be a maximum chained command of that number. For example, roban activates a strider(1) and a priest(1). The strider can activate another strider(2) who can activate another (3) who can activate one more (4). The last strider cannot activate any further models as he is at the end of the chain. The priest could however use authority to activate 4 models (2) who could activate a further set if models (3)
That's a difficult concept to explain elegantly though. It would also only impact the game rarely  - at this stage only limiting huge Grishak hordes or cadres of striders.
Did that make any sense? What do you think?

I like the current autonomy of the striders with cadre - they don't need a captain and in most forces they are limited in number so it isn't an issue.
I'm also pondering whether to make the captain model into a unique character - a strider who has survived a lot of conflicts and had his legs upgraded and patched up. It's at an early stage though, so open for discussion!
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TuffSkull
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« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2014, 11:09:41 pm »

I do understand your thinking on the chain limiting and I think its a good idea (but I do not envy the task of writing it in a rule book!). As you say it wouldn't limit you on many occasions, and it would further heighten the chain of command feel to the game, whilst still allowing for some horde elements.

If the command chain limiting comes in then the Kopa's pack(2) ability makes sense entirely. (and Dont get me wrong - his pack instinct ability already makes him well worth taking!)

 It would also seem to make the Strider Captains place rather simple, would it not? Same as the Grishak Kopa - give it Cadre (2) and it doubles the size of the Strider unit you can effectively activate at any one time. In most cases therefore he would simply be a cool looking strider, as rarely do you (I) field more than 5 striders in a regular game, but when you need him, he's available as an added option.

Equally, I'm always up for more unique characters and the figure looks deserving of a name from what I've seen of it so far! Smiley
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hithero
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« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2014, 10:03:53 am »

In any society, even on Anyaral it seems, in any walk of life you have leaders and followers and if a leader is absent then somebody will generally step forward to take command.  This is true from your placard waving demonstrators, to you elite SAS soldiers, to your pack of wild hyena, everybody has someone else to tell them what to do.

The Captain ability works well for the Militia, they need a Captain to operate efficiently and if he dies and there is nobody to lead them then they act slower as somebody tries to coerce them into action, this is represented well by the initiative system and moving one model at a time.  The ranking or ability of the Leader can be nicely represented by Leadership (4) or Leadership (Cool on how many models they can activate.  I think this is clearer and better than say Pack (2) where you have to then multiply that number to see how many models can be activated.  It would also offer you the opportunity to use any number you like, rather than just 4 or 8.

I'm no expert, but in the case of animals, Hyena or Grishak, would the same not be true? Or maybe even worse, would flee if the leader should die.  Either way, they should still require a Leader to act as a cohesive force.  A Grishak Kopa would be well represented by Greater Authority allowing for a chain of command but a Sempa could work like Lesser Authority as she leads her followers and no chain of command.

The Elite Striders, I think, would be in a similar boat, they are organised enough for any Strider to take command and could easily fit in nicely with the Greater/Lesser Authority rule and would also keep them themed within the Delgon way of organisation, and in effect, will operate the same way  as Cadre in allowing them all to activate each other.  So they would have the Cadre (4) ability and any one of them could activate up to 4 more (but stops there like Lesser Authority), the leader could have Cadre (Cool and/or a longer Command Range.

Keeping it Simple.  Yes it's nice to have a lot of flavour rules, but sometimes this can make for unnecessary complications and the command rules will be much easier to follow if there were only a couple of types to choose from.

As to the Strider Captain, why not give him a special ability in the same way as NuraSen Gohral is to a standard NuraSen although they  have a ton of special rules already.
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Carcharoth
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« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2014, 08:30:14 pm »

I had a play with some thoughts on the train...

KalMalog command structures

Within the Delgon armies there is a strong structure of priests who are responsible for relaying the orders of the Gods. The doctrine states that all soldiers are equal and that they must follow the authority of the Enarii and the priests with unquestioning loyalty.

The KalMalog present a challenge to this structure. They are selected from soldiers who show an unhealthy disregard for authority, but who have nevertheless demonstrated their worth and competence on the battlefield. Those soldiers are blessed with the opportunity to be upgraded with KalMalog legs, going through long painful surgery followed by slow rehabilitation. During rehabilitation they spend their time within small close-knit cadres overseen and trained by acolytes. They are trained to work together as a team, following orders, but expected to show unusual levels of autonomy given the speed and endurance they are capable of that their priests cannot match. In keeping with the Delgon doctrine, the KalMalog are all deemed as equals, bowing only to the authority of the Enarii (and the priests as their mouthpieces). In practice, the KalMalog see themselves as superior to the lowly acolytes but generally reach an unspoken understanding that on the battlefield they operate independently.

Although very effective on occasion, the life expectancy of the KalMalog proved to be relatively short during the initial confrontations with the Empire, with many overstretching themselves and finding their engines running slow at critical times. The priests recovered a large number of the legs and reworked them to be used again. The factories have also continued their production. The priests have no difficulties finding new Delgon to serve as KalMalog.

Those KalMalog who survived the initial conflicts learned to manage their engines, knowing when to use their fuel most efficiently. Some were brought back to support the new cadres, speeding up their training to create a second wave of KalMalog. These veterans serve as equals within the cadres although the new KalMalog look upon them with respect.

The following rules are a very early concept for playtesting.

KalMalog Veteran (~75pts)
M:8, C:3, S:1, T:4+, Stamina:8, CR:6”
Cadre(2), Sprint(4)*, Assassinate, Fuel, Stamina Limit(3), Combat Trained(2), Ferocity*

Notes on the design:

Cadre(2) may make no difference, but it reflects the extra level of respect they inspire. Possibly it should actually be slightly higher, with something like Cadre(4) instead, but I think it should work. Striders are rarely fielded in large numbers, so there isn’t generally an issue activating them as a group.
The increased stamina reflects the larger engines some of the Veterans have many to have added, or the fact that they will often carry additional fuel or simply use what they have more efficiently.

Ferocity is a definite improvement on Overdrive. It works identically, except that you can choose to spend the fuel after the combat stones have been cast (or recast for that matter).

I’ve kept the stamina limit to 3, but the increased stamina and the change to Ferocity should allow them to last much longer.

Please let me know what you think!
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Carcharoth
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« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2014, 10:33:50 pm »

I should also have commented on pack/cadre as skills. The idea behind them was to show the units all acting coherently and almost instinctively as a group. When a pack of hyenas attack, they might wait for the alpha to initiate, but from then on they are playing their role, acting as a pack without following individual orders. As with all rules it is a bit abstracted, but it has advantages - you can string the pack out to circle the target rather than having to stay as a unit (a pack of Grishak can move very differently to a unit of militia). A sempa can tell the pack what to do rather than having to tell each Grishak individually.
They could work with a form of Authority style skill, but I like the flexibility of the current approach. Authority could work for the Striders, but I liked the idea of them not needing specific leaders and captains - hence the cadre ability.
What do you think?
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hithero
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« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2014, 11:08:09 pm »

Looks and sounds good to me, I'll try the Vet out tomorrow.
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