Looking for Game Design Advice

[Lost Egg]

Hi all,

I like many gamers am interested in designing my own game and I was wondering if anyone had any advice on things to watch out etc.

I have been watching Twilight for a while and have finally succumbed to some figs and a copy of the rules and am really impressed with what you have achieved Mike. I'm looking forward to seeing it continue to grow. I did find a good little interview with you on Jubal's A Call to Arms page (http://s1.zetaboards.com/A_Call_to_Arms/topic/3271977/1/)  which was very informative but just wondered if you had some top tips? I'm sure others would be interested.

Cheers

HN

[Carcharoth]

Now that's a big question!

I'm not necessarilly the best person to ask... I've just plugged away at Twilight consistently for a very long time. I started off designing random expansions for games like HeroQuest when I was a kid and kinda just never stopped. One holiday from Uni I decided I wanted to create a game and a setting from scratch. I sketched various ideas and it slowly took form. I then started to try to teach myself to sculpt (GW had just started selling greenstuff, which got me very excited) and cast models so I would have soemthing to play with. The sculpts were incredibly crude, but did the job and I even demo'd the game at a show up in Leeds, but it kinda petered out after that. I then spent the next 10 years or so learning to sculpt properly, taking commissions etc. It was Heresy that first got me thinking I might be able to sell sculpts when Andy commissioned me to sculpt a giant spider. I always had the lingering hope of some day revisiting Twilight. I eventually did and three years ago I showed Sally a few sculpts and she offered to sell them. I think she underestimated what I was trying to do, but she and Kev helped a lot getting things going. The next big challenge I face now is working out how to broaden distribution rather than relying on Hasslefree as it is a bit much to expect them to support me indefinitely!

The approach I've taken has always been to do almost everything myself. There are other people with similar ambitions who have taken a more sensible approach. The Quar are a great example - Josh has done a lot of the design etc, but has managed to outsource the sculpting and a lot of the game design. He does the casting himself though, which probably reduces one of the major costs involved. Zenit have done a great job - once again one guy creating his vision, but outsourcing a lot of the work. He casts the resin models himself, but gets other people to do the sculpting and artwork etc. I'm not sure how involved in the game he was.

I would suggest you pick out what it is you want to do and then try to find others to help out. I've never been very good at that aspect, possibly because I've chosen such a quirky setting, or because I'm too picky, or haven't tried hard enough. Do you want to build a setting, or design clever rules, or sculpt a range? Do you want it to be a sensible commercial setting? What is it that makes your game any different to what already exists? What will be the cost for people to start playing? The last few years have seen a huge growth in the number of small skirmish games, so there is a lot more competition now than there was even three years.

I think the main reason for Twilight being a success is that I don't know when to be sensible and quit - there's always more I want to do with it so I've patiently overcome or worked around the major hurdles and slowly built something I'm kinda proud of. I'm certain there are more sensible approaches though 

[Lost Egg]

Thanks for your reply Mike.

In many ways you are the best person to ask, you have managed something that a lot of people try but few succeed. By the sounds of it one of the main reason you have succeeded is perseverance, even though it took ten years to get it off the ground! I'm sure that everyone who has ever designed a game has done it differently.

I can see how learning to sculpt to a good level is an asset, it's always the first thing gamers look at when checking out a new system. So are you looking, long term at least, to get your figs cast up for you then sent to a distributor? I have found some casters & distributors if your interested.

Doing everything yourself does make sense, I have always found that each time I try and explain an idea to someone it gets slightly watered down; the more people involved the weaker the idea becomes. As an idea becomes more solid and established its easier to share with others and then can then help to make it even stronger. I suppose the one-man-band route takes longer but is easier to start financially as you don't need to pay out for sculptors and artists.

I've done a bit of sculpting before and am hoping to get back into this year, as well as drawing so I'm sure its all a long way off...maybe 2021, lol.

Cheers again!

HN

[Carcharoth]

Do feel free to share any of your ideas or sculpts here - I'm always interested to see other random games and I'd be happy to create a section of this forum for that purpose.

I use Griffin for all my metal casting (expensive, but good quality and I think they manage to cast things that would cause other people problems!) and Fenris have done a great job with the resin belan (I've got a box of 28 Belan on my desk - I can't wait to get home na dunpack them!). I am however looking for more distributors at the moment, so any suggestions would be appreciated!

I would recommend you outsource some of the sculpting if you can - it's expensive and can be a challenge to get your ideas realised properly, but it is a huge time drain otherwise (but fun and there is something very satisying about seeing a concept through from random idea to a cast sculpt). Mark has only done a few sculpts so far, but they have made a huge difference to the range already! And if you are learning to sculpt have a look at polymer resins (like fimo) instead of green stuff - I think they can make life an awful lot easier, even if you have to get masters cast in resin.

[Lost Egg]

Cheers, I've been working on a few ideas on and off for a couple of years but there is one main idea I'm looking at; a game based around the Invasion Cycle of Irish Gaelic myth. I'm nearly finished revising the rules, again, new ideas just keep popping up; I'm feeling a bit like a sponge, lol. I might pop it up when I'm done but it still needs a lot of work and I have recently changed focus on it so I need to 'adjust' the fluff a lot.

I've heard lots of good things about Griffin; quality but you pay for it. Worth it in the long run I'm sure. If you were thinking of looking for someone else I did find this site.
http://cart.themouldmaker.com/index.php?p=home

Well I found this distributor for the UK.
http://www.kingsleydistribution.net/

To be honest I'm looking forward to the challenge of taking the models from sketch to final sculpt. I know it will take a while but I prefer the slow and steady approach. I think that in many ways taking a long time to see a project through gives breathing space to really fill everything out; the world, the designs, justify everything to give it all a sense of authenticity. I have been involved in a fair bit of design work in a few areas and know that if you rush it something always has to give. It makes me think of the LOTR films and the costume design, they went into such detail both seen on film and not seen all to give it the sense of history. A good investment I feel.

I'm currently compiling a family origin myth, my roots are Gaelic so the Invasion Cycle features prominently. It's taken me 15 years to get to this point, not working on it constantly mind, and hopefully by the end of the year it will be done. I reckon it's turned out so much better than how it would have otherwise.

So far for sculpting I have mainly been using green stuff but I have found mixing in some pro-create works well. It will probably be a while before I do much sculpting as I have a new 40k army to finish...not to mention a few other figs. 

HN

[Jubal]

I've done a bit of game design myself, mostly in supplements for WHFB and WoT but I've written a full-scale RPG system as well. I'm certainly not planning to build my own skirmish game - there are many, many of them as it is - but I do like tinkering and inputting to other people's. Doubt I'll ever make a productionworthy model in my life though, you have no idea how atrociously cack-handed I am (actually Mike's seen photos of my painting ability so he prolly does). 

Design work is massive fun though, and that's where I tend to really dig deep. I'm getting close to version 0.75 of my RPG rules, which eventually will have a very rich background drawing on gothic themes, clockpunk, the English Civil War, the Seven Years' war, and a bunch of other 17th and 18th century conflicts and historical settings. I've designed a full high fantasy world as well, which has a lot of elements based around the Byzantines and mixes high fantasy with Eastern European ideas and greek myth rather than being wholly dominated by the western European knights/castles/elves setting (I kept some Dwarfs though). My main problem with all that is also cack-handedness though, I can't sketch and can never find anyone to sketch anything for me either.

[Lost Egg]

Well if your looking for artists or sculptors I found this forum.

http://www.minisculpture.co.uk/index.php?PHPSESSID=9398f8c62eb15a8040bbaaf6182b59a9&action=forum

Designed an RPG! Wow, those things seem like a massive job to me.

HN

[Jubal]

It's less finding someone, more finding someone who will do stuff without me paying commission rates which are far above & beyond what I can reasonably pay given that I'm only 17. 

[Lost Egg]

Probably the best thing to do here is find someone in your school or college who wants to expand or work on their portfolio...then ply them with nibbles and err...shandy, lol.

HN

[Brandlin]

Looking for Game Design Advice New

find some mug to build your demo board?

[Carcharoth]

Looking for Game Design Advice New

find some mug to build your demo board?

Find some mug to volunteer to build your demo board...

[Brandlin]

define "volunteer"!

[Lost Egg]

Was a pointed stick involved...?

[Carcharoth]

define "volunteer"!

A: "I fancy building a really big and excessively complicated board for next Salute. Would you like it for a demo game"
M: "Are you sure it needs all those cantilevers and hidden sections?"
A: "I suppose not, how about something big and L shaped with a fully functioning city"
M: "Sounds great, but how about we dial that back a notch to a moderate 6x4 board"
A: "I suppose so..."